Amazon refuses French tax initiative, Apple negotiating

The Grande Louvre in Paris, France

Google, Microsoft, and Facebook have signed up to a new "Tech for Good Call," a French initiative that includes principles about taxation. Amazon has declined to collaborate, however, and Apple is reportedly still in discussions.

As France begins implementing its own digital tax system, the country's government is also working to get non-binding agreements from big tech companies over global issues. Reportedly, 75 executives from technology firms around the world have signed the "Tech for Good Call," but notable exceptions are Apple and Amazon.

According to Reuters, the global issues involved range from taxation, through privacy, and on to combating hate crime online.

Companies agree to "contribute fairly to the taxes in countries where [they] operate," a presidential spokesperson said. They also agree to block "child sexual abuse material, terrorist or extreme violence [of] online contents," and to "support the ecological transition."

"Tech for Good Call," a non-legally binding agreement, follows a 2018 conference on the topics. Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg attended that conference and is now a signatory of the agreement.

So is Google CEO Sundar Pichai, Microsoft president Brad Smith. Amazon has reportedly declined to sign, and according to Reuters, Apple is still in discussions.

"The goal is also to... observe objectively those who decide to play ball and align their interest with individuals and societies and those who stay out of this joint movement," the presidential spokesperson said.

This "Tech for Good Call" is part of more than three years of effort from France's President Macron to do with getting big tech companies to collaborate with governments. Reportedly, President Macron intends to use the initiative to pressure other technology firms in forthcoming negotiations.

The initiative and France's digital tax plans are not connected with the EU-wide moves to implement new taxation laws.

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6 Comments

leavingthebigg 1291 comments · 11 Years

About 3 years ago

I was wondering what the hidden motives were about this “Tech for Good Call” and the above statement made it crystal clear for me: Back door access to user data.

gatorguy 24608 comments · 13 Years

About 3 years ago

leavingthebigg said:

"The goal is also to... observe objectively those who decide to play ball and align their interest with individuals and societies and those who stay out of this joint movement," the presidential spokesperson said

I was wondering what the hidden motives were about this “Tech for Good Call” and the above statement made it crystal clear for me: Back door access to user data.

LOL ...
So by extension Amazon refuses to give up any user data, but Apple is still willing to give up some of it and just negotiating how much will be acceptable to the French.
Geez, think things thru much?

foregoneconclusion 2836 comments · 12 Years

About 3 years ago

Non-binding = for publicity and marketing purposes.

Rayz2016 6957 comments · 8 Years

About 3 years ago

gatorguy said:

leavingthebigg said:

"The goal is also to... observe objectively those who decide to play ball and align their interest with individuals and societies and those who stay out of this joint movement," the presidential spokesperson said

I was wondering what the hidden motives were about this “Tech for Good Call” and the above statement made it crystal clear for me: Back door access to user data.

LOL ...
So by extension Amazon refuses to give up any user data, but Apple is still willing to give up some of it and just negotiating how much will be acceptable to the French.
Geez, think things thru much?

Well, to begin with, we don't know which part Apple is negotiating.

Are they negotiating the 'fair' tax bit?
Are they negotiating the bit about sharing user data with the competition, whether the its customers want it shared or not?

But that's not the main problem. The main problem is that this is a 'voluntary pledge'. There is nothing here that says what is a fair level of taxation; that's left up to the signatories, There's nothing here that says what is fair use of customer data: that's left up to the signatories. It's basically a toothless promise that they're signing up to that shows how virtuous they are. Do you really think Facebook gives a shit about fair use of customer data?

https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/30/dozens-of-tech-companies-sign-tech-for-good-call-following-french-initiative/

“Amazon didn’t want to sign it and I invite you to ask them directly,” a source close to the French president said. The French government is clearly finger-pointing in Amazon’s case.
This is an odd move as it’s a non-binding pledge. You can say that you want to “contribute fairly to taxes” and then argue that you’re paying everything that you owe — tax optimization is not tax evasion, after all. Worse, you can say that you’re building products with “privacy by design” in mind while you’re actually building entire companies based on personalized ads and micro-targeting.
In other words, the Tech for Good Summit was created for photo opportunities (like the photo from 2018 below). Tech CEOs want to be treated like heads of state, while Macron wants to position himself as a tech-savvy president. It’s a win-win for them, and a waste of time for everyone else.

Right, so here's why Apple shouldn't sign up to this:

If they did then they would be putting themselves at a disadvantage compared to other signatories such as Facebook and Google. Why? Because the only company that would be staking its integrity on following this arbitrary pledge is Apple because, let's face it, no one is expecting Google or Facebook to set their own view of fair play very highly. We already know that Google is happy to circumvent browser privacy settings

https://venturebeat.com/2013/11/18/google-privacy-settlement/

And Facebook? Well, the links for Facebook's crimes could fill a forum.

So the only company that is going to be watched for breaking this 'pledge' would be Apple. The others can apply their own rather flexible moral values to what the pledge means and face no comeback when they fail to live up their own low expectations. Only Apple will be hauled over the coals, which would put Apple at a disadvantage.

When the French come up with a set of concrete laws then I'm happy for Apple to sign up, otherwise, this is just photo-opping and won't do them or their customers any favours in the long run.

gatorguy 24608 comments · 13 Years

About 3 years ago

Rayz2016 said:

gatorguy said:

leavingthebigg said:

"The goal is also to... observe objectively those who decide to play ball and align their interest with individuals and societies and those who stay out of this joint movement," the presidential spokesperson said

I was wondering what the hidden motives were about this “Tech for Good Call” and the above statement made it crystal clear for me: Back door access to user data.

LOL ...
So by extension Amazon refuses to give up any user data, but Apple is still willing to give up some of it and just negotiating how much will be acceptable to the French.
Geez, think things thru much?

Well, to begin with, we don't know which part Apple is negotiating.

Are they negotiating the 'fair' tax bit?
Are they negotiating the bit about sharing user data with the competition, whether the its customers want it shared or not?

But that's not the main problem. The main problem is that this is a 'voluntary pledge'. There is nothing here that says what is a fair level of taxation; that's left up to the signatories, There's nothing here that says what is fair use of customer data: that's left up to the signatories. It's basically a toothless promise that they're signing up to that shows how virtuous they are. Do you really think Facebook gives a shit about fair use of customer data?

https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/30/dozens-of-tech-companies-sign-tech-for-good-call-following-french-initiative/

“Amazon didn’t want to sign it and I invite you to ask them directly,” a source close to the French president said. The French government is clearly finger-pointing in Amazon’s case.
This is an odd move as it’s a non-binding pledge. You can say that you want to “contribute fairly to taxes” and then argue that you’re paying everything that you owe — tax optimization is not tax evasion, after all. Worse, you can say that you’re building products with “privacy by design” in mind while you’re actually building entire companies based on personalized ads and micro-targeting.
In other words, the Tech for Good Summit was created for photo opportunities (like the photo from 2018 below). Tech CEOs want to be treated like heads of state, while Macron wants to position himself as a tech-savvy president. It’s a win-win for them, and a waste of time for everyone else.

Right, so here's why Apple shouldn't sign up to this:

If they did then they would be putting themselves at a disadvantage compared to other signatories such as Facebook and Google. Why? Because the only company that would be staking its integrity on following this arbitrary pledge is Apple because, let's face it, no one is expecting Google or Facebook to set their own view of fair play very highly. We already know that 10 years ago Google circumvented user privacy setttings. ~~Google is happy to circumvent browser privacy settings~~

Brought it up to date for ya Rayz. Not a great Google moment which they were not entirely honest about IMO, but it happened a decade ago. Besides that everyone ignored the privacy settings which is why "DO NOT TRACK" died several years back. It was never a law, effectively a suggestion more or less. You should find a more recent example if you want it to be taken more seriously as an example of why Google doesn't care about user privacy.

Anyway my initial post was in regard to @leavingthebigg saying it was oh-so-obvious to him it was all about user data. Seems we both agree that it's probably far more than that. We're at least both in the same chapter if not on the exact page. :)